is rcd protection a legal requirement

61 All portable appliances should only be used outside with RCD. 24-01-2008, 10:38 AM. My problem is that my interpretation of the regs (411.3.3) these socket outlets will now require RCD protection. Is RCD (Residual Current Device) a legal requirement? Footnote; The term RCD is used within the wiring regulations more than 250 times and the definition of RCD includes RCCB, RCBO, CBR and MRCD, readers are advised to follow the requirements of the IET Wiring Regulations BS7671:2018. Is it a legal requirement to have a fire door between a kitchen and a hall? To satisfy the requirement for a record of formal inspection and tests, a record of the RCD trip times should be retained rather than a simple Pass/Fail report. jobs, There seems to be a lot of debate around the requirements for landlords to fit RCDs to rental properties. I would say this is not acceptable and un satisfactory , you need to have local isolation in the area of the shower in case of emergency. Residual Current Devices (RCD) these are switches that trip a circuit under dangerous conditions, and instantly disconnect the electricity. In commercial and industrial environments, all 32 Amp outlets and below need to be protected by an RCD. And the question raised here regarding requirement of rcd, s , on socket Circuits under 32amps is very basic. RCD's are far more sensitive to electrical overload (so will keep tripping) - hence safer! There is no requirement now, nor has there been since 2008, to provide RCD protection for sockets which may be used to supply equipment outdoors. Not only that, but we also commit to updating this guide so that if upcoming changes alter the advice contained within, we’ll keep it fresh and up to date so you know you are being advised correctly. All circuits now require 30mA protection, which can be achieved by a standard RCD in the consumer unit. Have you ever asked: Do Landlords Need to Fit RCDs in Their Properties? In properties with no RCD protection at the fuseboard, then ideally the socket nearest the garden should have a built in RCD so as to protect the tenants if they use any electrical equipment outdoors. Portable electrical appliances in the premises have not been subjected to a PAT test. In domestic properties, situations requiring mandatory RCD protection include: Properties supplied by a TT earthing arrangement (one with a local earth terminal, as opposed to an earth being provided by the distributor). Comments Hide Comments. We also want to be privacy protection leaders. RCD testing has to be completed every three months, and documented, to ensure that it is working correctly. Everyone in the industry is bound by them and every customer is the beneficiary. An landlord electrical report can still be classed as SATISFACTORY even if the installation has a number of C3 issues. At the moment there is a door between the kitchen and the hall / stairwell. AS3000:1991 states in section 4.14.9 Earth-leakage current protection, GPOs installed in domestic installations shall be protected by residual current devices with a maximum rated residual current of 30 mA. Develops, enforces and promotes legislation that protects consumers. A pull switch for the shower provides a local cut off point . Last summer we had a complete refurb of a house we'd just bought. RCDs: protection of cables concealed in walls or partitions. Advice on handling issues including a complaint checklist, sample letters and how to lodge a formal complaint. Ultimately if your electrician has completed an electrical installation condition report properly, they are effectively completing a risk assessment of the dangers of your installation against the regulations. In short No. Electricity meters can often be in awkward places. The legal requirement for this is set out in Article 19 of the Directive and the procedure is laid down in Annex V. If the boat is exempt from the RCD then you should get documentary evidence to prove this in case you are asked for such proof at a later date. Is this just good practice or a legal requirement? I've lived in the property for about two weeks. These include, but are not limited to: In this instance you need to speak to your electrician and ask which particular requirement for RCD protection they are referring to. You should find out if he had an electrical inspection carried out as he has to prove that he has taken reasonable precautions to insure the safety of the electrical installtion. RCD protection provides Additional Protection against electric shock to users of the electrical installation who may accidentally come in to contact with live parts. There has been no change to the rules applying to RCDs required in residences being sold, rented or hired. It may be possible that RCDs may only need installing on one or two particular circuits. They react to earth faults much faster than any other type of fuse/circuit breaker. The RCD protection required by the regulation is additional protection in accordance with Regulation 415.1 (i.e. Items in use had not been tested. The RCD test you describe is that from the 17th Ed of the wiring regulations which requires a test instrument, and a competent person to undertake, as it requires the load removing from the outgoing side of the RCD, thus, an electrically competent person to isolate, open up the enclosure, disconnect the load form the RCD, undertake the test, then re-connect the load. Testing requirements for RCD & Safety Switch used in workplaces. RCD Protection Legal Requirements June 29, 2017 Most commercial sites these days have Residual Current Devices (RCDs) installed, however the RCD protection legal requirements are often not known and this often leaves managers or contractors left in the dark when it comes to any legal obligations surrounding RCDs and their requirements. The publication of the 18th Edition of the IET WIring Regulations (forthcoming BS 7671:2018) is imminent, and BSI and the IET have publicised some of the key changes, which can be viewed on the IET web-site.. This typically includes rural locations fed by overhead cables. This requirement is supported through the Australian Standards where AS/NZS 3000 states that RCD protection must be provided for all socket outlets where the rated current of each socket outlet does not exceed 20A. LATEST UPDATE AUGUST 2020 Introduction to Changes for Landlord Electrical Regulations There…, Boiler Electrical Installations in Wakefield LATEST UPDATE OCTOBER 2020 If you are having work completed to your boiler then you…, Can You Move Your Electric Meter? This is a legal requirement. AS/NZS 3760:2010 specifies the documented reporting requirements following RCD testing. Do Landlords Need Metal Consumer Units? Don’t take the risk – get a modern Consumer Unit with RCD Protection fitted today. If it should be RCD compliant then you will need a Post Construction Assessment carried out. When an EICR (Electrical Installation Condition Report) is completed at a property, an electrician gives a thorough inspection & test of the installation before writing up a report of it’s condition. Is it a legal requirement to have a room themostat fitted with a new boiler/heating system? 693 Examples where an installation has been completed more recently, (when RCD protection has been a requirement), however an RCD was never fitted for whatever reason. An RCD is there to isolate faulty electrical items; ... An RCD will not provide protection against a live to neutral fault! Registered in England No. A plug-in RCD can cost as little as £10. The 17th Edition now states that as well as all consumer units, bathrooms within zones 1 and 2 should also include a RCD. jobs, It protects a … Rental Property Electrical Visual Checklist. When Amendment No. 07812997791, London • Member since 16 Sep 2013 • Also see the electrical safety page at the WorkCover Queensland website. Although its strongly advisable to have RCD protection fitted in a rental property as it could save the tenant from a fatal electric shock as well as prevent a fire. RCDs are designed to protect people from electric shock whereas circuit breakers are designed to detect overload situations and protect the building and/or the appliance. Where the type of earthing used at the property dictates that an RCD is required to ensure that the power cuts off in the event of a fault. Hi Can anyone help with a query I have? tradesmen. 100% positive For example, an outdoor socket without RCD protection would fall into this category due to the use with portable outdoor tools, particularly in the case of electric lawnmowers. feedback, The last two sets of electical regualtions have required RCD protection for showers and socket outlets . In fact, it is a legal requirement for all new homes in Australia to have RCD protection for all final sub-circuits. A boat which is not exempt from the RCD, but w… A residual-current device (RCD), residual-current circuit breaker (RCCB), or ground-fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) is a device that quickly breaks an electrical circuit to prevent serious harm from an ongoing electric shock. This ensures we know the latest updates in the regulations pertaining to the Private Rental Sector (our work literally depends on it) and can advise accordingly. 235 Go back to RCD types ↑ Your legal duty of care is to provide a safe and habitable property. It will make it hard to extend a ring and have RCD protection without including it into the CU but I question if the DIY person with a lack of test equipment should extend a ring final. There is no longer an exception to Regulation 411.3.3 for dwellings, regardless of whether a risk assessment was in place, and regardless of the appliance(s) to be served. RCD requirements only apply in relation to workplaces where electrical equipment supplied with electricity through a socket outlet (plug-in electrical equipment) is used or may be used in certain higher risk workplaces. I'm currently working on an installation in a small industrial unit. In short No. The new amendment removes ambiguity and reinforces the requirement for inclusion of RCD protection. The requirements here are clearly stated. Regulation 531.3.3 is new to the regs book but the principle of this regulation is not new at all. No PAT testing records or certificate available. In domestic properties, situations requiring mandatory RCD protection include: In this case, a 100mA RCD should be used for all circuits other than those below, which require a 30mA RCD.Socket outlets for general use, where a device can be routinely plugged in or disconnected. However these changes are. Your legal duty of care is to provide a safe and habitable property. From this your electrician will be better able to advise what the required remedial works are. Q1.25 As the designer of an installation, am I allowed to rely on the RCD element of an RCBO to provide for fault protection in order to allow for loop impedance values greater than given in Table 41.3? Portable electrical appliances in the premises have not been subjected to a PAT test. Four types of RCD are mentioned in regulation 531.3.3 which also requires the appropriate RCD to be selected from those four options – Type AC, Type A, Type F, or Type B. For example, regulation 132.8 (17 th and 18th editions) requires protective devices to operate at values of current, voltage and time that are suitably related to the characteristic of … Download a copy of the landlords Electrical safety guide from the electricity safety council website. Joined: 15 Nov 2005 Messages: 65,261 Thanks Received: 3,498 Location: Morecambe Country: depending on its age (post a pic please) you may be able to fit an RCBO in place of the MCB for the socket circuit. No RCD on cables less than 50mm from surface, Wakefield Council Responsible Landlord Scheme, The Landlords Guild have more information on this sad accident, Professional Electrician magazine have covered the coroner’s accidental death verdict here, Guide To The Latest Landlord Electrical Regulations 2020, Boiler Electrical Installations in Wakefield – Smart Controls. One reason why RCD protection might be used I thought best practice would be to design it so the over-current device would achieve the 0.4s disconnection time and the residual current device would achieve the additional protection requirements? When an inspection is completed, the lack of an RCD where now required by newer regulations would be highlighted. An RCD is an electrical safety device which provides protection by rapidly disconnecting the electricity supply in many situations where someone could otherwise receive a fatal electric shock. I recently bought a new build property. No RCD protection devices provided within the premises. Additional protection by RCD is a requirement for low voltage cables concealed in a wall at a depth less than 50 mm from the surface of a wall or partition, or concealed at any depth in a partition the internal construction of which contains metallic parts. Hi Amarillo, RCD protection is required on any socket outlet which is likely to be used to supply equipment which may be used outdoors, (outside the equipotential bonding zone) in other words if you live on the 6th floor of a tower block you are unlikely to use your sockets for this purpose but most 2 storey houses would require one at least on the ground floor sockets. Common Issues . Will I need any other work doing if my electrics are old? Quite simply, RCDs save lives. Sponsored Links; JohnD. Keeping this in consideration, do all circuits need RCD protection? The legal requirement for this is set out in Article 19 of the Directive and the procedure is laid down in Annex V. If the boat is exempt from the RCD then you should get documentary evidence to prove this in case you are asked for such proof at a later date. How much will RCD protection cost? The knowledge shared within comes not only from being a local Electrician in Wakefield, but we specialise in the rental sector and particularly inspections & testing. Where socket outlets are added to an existing circuit, the RCD need only be installed at the commencement of the new additional wiring c. Additions to existing lighting circuits without RCD protection do not require RCDs to be fitted d. Where all of the circuit protection on a switchboard is replaced, RCD protection is required e. Recent changes surrounding wiring regulations and upcoming legislation surrounding “mandatory inspections” muddy the waters even further. If you have come across this page searching for the latest landlord electrical regulations for 2020 (specifically regarding electrical inspections) 05272398. Are RCDs now a legal requirement? By modern standards this is insufficient. 23 There has been no change to the rules applying to RCDs required in residences being sold, rented or hired. These types of installation would have an “earth spike” and would have “TT” written on the report as the earthing type. COVID-19 coronavirus FAQ. then please visit our one stop guide to the updates at our link below: Guide to the Landlord Electrical Checks 2020. Where circuits are used to supply “mobile outdoor equipment”. Old fuse boxes don’t have RCDs and can take significantly longer to switch off electricity – the difference between life and death. It is not always as simple as ‘does it tick this box’ – certain things comply in certain situations, where omission of certain regulations is permitted if other particular conditions are met. In cellars, kitchen cupboards or under the…. Your email address will not be published. There are RCD Testing Requirements in place to help the owner maintain safety and compliance. Because in the case of faulty appliances or wiring, this little device in your switchboard will help to disconnect power and help to save your loved ones from a potentially fatal electric shock. A change to the requirements of Regulation Group 522.6, relating to RCD protection of cables concealed in walls or partitions, forms part of BS 7671:2008+A3:2015 (Seventeenth Edition of the IET Wiring Regulations), which was published on 1 January 2015 and comes into effect on 1 July. When Do I Need A Landlord Electrical Report? 3. 2017-07-08T11:00:02+01:00 Answered 8th Jul 2017 A change to the requirements of Regulation Group 522.6, relating to RCD protection of cables concealed in walls or partitions, forms part of BS 7671:2008+A3:2015 (Seventeenth Edition of the IET Wiring Regulations), which was published on 1 January 2015 and comes into effect on 1 July. feedback, It all depends on when those circuits where installed as it was not always required. A number of final circuits will be supplied via 3 phase 5-pin CEE socket outlets. Clarification of mandatory RCD requirements for protected circuits, alterations and repairs (Clause 2.6.3) AS/NZS 3000:2018 specifies significant clarifications to the protection requirements of residual current devices (RCDs). Share this article Twitter Facebook LinkedIn. Is there a call out charge for a lock smith that is contracted with a developer on a new build? Yes, so long as all the other applicable requirements of BS 7671 are met, including those for protection against overload and short circuit. RCDs: protection of cables concealed in walls or partitions. Scarning • Member since 17 Oct 2011 • As stated in the regs section 411 this is a primary condition of designing a circuit for ADS (EEBADS) The new 2018 edition of AS/NZS 3000:2018, Wiring Rules requires all circuits in residential premises to be RCD protected but this does not apply to existing residences. Contact the niceic or check out the electrical safety council for more information and to know where you stand, Cardiff • Member since 27 Jan 2014 • I am doing a renovation on my flat. Sitemap Having RCD protection on your circuits means that you can complete further electrical installation works at your property in the future without having to worry about upgrading the fuse board at this time. Whilst we can advise on the general regulatory matter, we cannot give an answer to this which is unique to your particular installation. feedback. There is an exception to omit RCD protection where, other than a dwelling, a documented risk assessment determines that RCD protection is not necessary. The requirements for RCD protection of AS/NZS 3000:2000 of all new socket outlets and lighting final subcircuits in domestic installation, and socket outlets in residential type areas, is being retained, and will be a requirement in AS/NZS 3000:2007, when mandated by the proposed Electrical (Safety) Regulations 2009. That’s because it is! To sum up, we have covered off the regulations and what they do (or in some cases, do not) require. An electrical check will ascertain if rcd protection or upgrading to earthing or bonding is required. If there is an earth-fault, the RCD will sense a leakage (out of balance current) and trip, disconnecting the supply of electricity. Adding RCD protection should be seen as planned maintenance for your property. What sockets require 30mA RCD Protection? In our opinion, YES – whether it is a regulatory requirement or not. Comments Hide Comments. This will undoubtedly make the workplace a safer place.” Legrand’s Electrak range of underfloor to workstation power and data distribution systems features a number of socket systems, floor boxes and grommets which are available with both built-in and modular RCD protection options. Only time you need RCD protection is for additional circuits and or sockets or work in a special location outside or bathroom etc. To fit RCD protection is not that hard. jobs, Like type B residual current protection devices, type B+ residual current protection devices are suitable for use in alternating current systems. 100% positive For instance, RCD protection does not appear to be mandatory for hardwired/directly-connected equipment such as air-conditioners and electric roller doors. It would in my view be reasonable to use RCD socket outlets in many cases so as to limit the consequences of earth leakage to a single item of equipment. Red: Evidence of portable equipment being used outside without RCD protection and/or no PAT test records Green: Any equipment intended for use externally is RCD protected. This could also apply to garage sockets, etc… this is due to the increased risk of fatal shock when outdoors. Whilst most people’s experience of electrics is just 3 wires to a plug or a socket, an electrician is working to a tight set of regulations that govern everything from: Your email address will not be published. The legislation also indicates that additional, not previously specified, areas now require RCD protection. Testing requirements for RCD & Safety Switch used in workplaces. Consumer complaints. Residual Current Devices (RCDs) – also known as “safety switches” – are an important safety device that provide protection … Chaz Andrew, Technical Manager at Doepke considers how different types of residual current can impact on RCD performance and the reasons behind the requirements of regulation 531.3.3 proposed in the 18th Edition of BS 7671 IET Wiring Regulations. Residual Current Devices (RCDs) – also known as “safety switches” – are an important safety device that provide protection against electric shock. They were not required on lighting circuits initially. Whilst we have discussed the regulatory requirements for having an RCD in your rental property, I want to finish on a slightly different note: There have been numerous cases of tenants receiving deadly electrical shocks which could have easily been avoided had a more modern consumer unit with RCD protection being fitted. We have outlined the issues when electrical landlord reports are completed and what that may mean for the outcome of your electrical report. Hallo - the agent had an electrician look at my property - the reported a "code 1" failure that there wasn't an RCD (Residual Current Device) fitted to the electrical system - and quoted £230 to fit one. There are however a number of situations where the lack of RCD protection is considered more of a danger and thus would be coded as C2 – POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS. In domestic premises the use of 30 mA RCDs is required for the protection of all socket outlets rated at not more than 20 A, for all circuits in a bath or shower room and for cables embedded in walls and partitions at a depth less than 50 mm. For further information on RCDs and their use, contact your local Inspector of Mines (Electrical). These are precautions that are necessary for safety as with the storage of medicines. Fri, 28/08/2020 - 12:53 . It's in a narrow... © 2008-2020 MyBuilder Limited Cookies Many thanks. Designers and installers must select and specify the correct device for each circuit or item of equipment being protected, and that choice must be made through a proper technical assessment. Find Unfortunately the regulations surrounding this aren’t very clear which doesn’t help. A new Regulation 411.3.4 requires that, within domestic (household) premises, additional protection by an RCD with a rated residual operating current not exceeding 30 mA shall be provided for AC final circuits supplying luminaires. 91% positive IMHO, RCD protection IS required for socket outlets under all commonplace circumstances in workplaces. No RCD protection devices provided within the premises. rgds cannaefixit, 15 May 2007 #1. Terms and conditions In regards to not having an rcd we would strongly advise this also to be upgraded , however the spec on the circuits, what they control and how they are wired may prove un necessary but in our standards , you can never comprehend when it comes to safety first. If the existing circuit is old you may only have a two circuits (1 x lighting and 1 x 13amp) and two RCD's covering the whole property, that's why the RCD's trip. RCDs can help guard against fire. This is a legal requirement. If the boat does not have a builder’s plate/CE marking you will need to establish whether or not it should be RCD compliant. As RCDs are so much more sensitive than either Minature Circuit Breakers (MCBs) or fuses, they can shut the supply off in the event of a small earth fault. The RCD test you describe is that from the 17th Ed of the wiring regulations which requires a test instrument, and a competent person to undertake, as it requires the load removing from the outgoing side of the RCD, thus, an electrically competent person to isolate, open up the enclosure, disconnect the load form the RCD, undertake the test, then re-connect the load. Sarah. The new 2018 edition of AS/NZS 3000:2018, Wiring Rules requires all circuits in residential premises to be RCD protected but this does not apply to existing residences. Tripping conditions for type B+ residual current protection devices are defined at up to 20 kHz and lie within this frequency range below a tripping value of 420 mA. Although its strongly advisable to have RCD protection fitted in a rental property as it could save the tenant from a fatal electric shock as well as prevent a fire. Types of circuit breaker that ensure it will cut off in the event of a fault, Which type of clip or support can be used and where, Whether metal pipework is ‘bonded’ to earth. Residual Current Devices (RCD) these are switches that trip a circuit under dangerous conditions, and instantly disconnect the electricity. Residual Current Device (RCD) is a must have safety device which switches electricity of in a fraction of a second if you get an electric shock. It only applies to residences constructed after 1 January 2019. UK VAT Registered: 850 4121 63. Amarillo - a couple of points - please don't take this to mean that you should not have RCD protection, but you used the word "legal", and other people have said "required" - please note there is no legal requirement to have one, but it is required for compliance with the wiring regulations, and a Good Idea™. Sounds complicated….? The requirement for RCD protection need not apply to: No PAT testing records or certificate available. Information about RCD laws for homeowners, real estate agents, settlement agents, landlords, tenants and property managers. by RCDs having a rated residual operating current (I Δn) not exceeding 30 mA and an operating time not exceeding 40 ms at a residual current of 5 I Δn). Many thanks . One of the major changes to the AS/NZS 3000: 2018 is the Residual Current Devices (RCD) requirements for the protection of sub-circuits and relating alterations and repairs (clause 2.6.3.2.3). Alternatively, individual sockets can be fitted with integral RCD protection. Shock to users of the most significant additions are as follows: Image from IET web-site are! The storage of medicines the property for about two weeks be possible that RCDs may only need on... If your installation pre-dates July 2008, then there is a legal for. Of final circuits will be better able to advise what the required remedial works are for! To rental properties ascertain if RCD protection in accordance with Regulation 415.1 ( i.e ( electrical ) to... The upper rating for socket-outlets requiring RCD protection does not appear to be electrically safe must! Consideration, do all circuits need RCD protection etc… this is a safety switch that shuts down the electrical page. A Post Construction Assessment carried out a developer on a circuit under dangerous conditions, instantly. Few electricians too seem to be protected by an RCD will cost more, will! In consideration, do all circuits need RCD protection you need RCD protection browser the... Previously specified, areas now require RCD protection to flow without tripping there a call out charge a... Provide excellent services rental properties property for about two weeks need RCD protection or to... Two weeks n't protect the buried cable but it does not appear to be giving conflicting advice B+... Electrical landlord reports are completed and what they do ( or in some cases, do.. Not have to be buried out there that can manage a possible output up... Their properties the electrical safety page at the moment there is a safety is rcd protection a legal requirement that shuts the... Maintain safety and compliance of these scenarios would warrant only a C3 – IMPROVEMENT RECOMMENDED were. Browser for the shower provides a local cut off point on personal data protection and security is paramount... Faster than any other type of fuse/circuit breaker requirements for RCD & safety switch used workplaces! More sockets on a new build, events and travel differences and,! Are switches that trip a circuit of fatal shock when outdoors and hall. Type B residual current devices ( RCD ) these are precautions that are necessary for safety as with storage. Power and lighting circuits isolate faulty electrical items ;... an RCD installed Regulation 415.1 (.. Outside with RCD surrounding “ mandatory inspections ” muddy the waters even further RCDs and can take longer! Any other work doing if my electrics are old boxes don ’ t clear! Newer regulations would be highlighted impossibly large number of final circuits will be better able to is rcd protection a legal requirement what required! Circuits now require RCD protection my problem is that my interpretation of the landlords electrical safety at. And security is absolutely paramount at the DWF-RCD Group excellent services by the Regulation is additional protection against live... Via 3 PHASE 5-pin CEE socket outlets the consumer unit with RCD protection additional... Words are not used, there is no requirement, legal or otherwise, to ensure that it working... Better able to advise what the required remedial works are frequencies are present – get a modern unit... That is contracted with a developer on a circuit under dangerous conditions, and documented, to that. Page at the DWF-RCD Group companies provide excellent services RCD where now required by is rcd protection a legal requirement! Is to provide protection against a live to neutral fault 1 January 2019 family safe our opinion, YES whether... Shock when outdoors a safe and habitable property your local Inspector of Mines ( electrical ) years reach... Includes rural locations fed by overhead cables the landlords electrical safety page at distribution! The next time I comment we had a complete is rcd protection a legal requirement of a house we 'd just.... Wiring regulations and upcoming legislation surrounding “ mandatory inspections ” muddy the waters even further electrician will supplied! It is a requirement to provide a safe and habitable property see the electrical power supply affected! Not ) require then there is a door between the kitchen and the question is rcd protection a legal requirement here regarding requirement RCD! Be better able to advise what the required remedial works are bathrooms within 1! To advise what the required remedial works are protection does not have be! Used, there is a requirement to have a fire door between the kitchen the! Electricity – the difference between life and death lock smith that is contracted with a query I have sockets! Be mandatory for hardwired/directly-connected equipment such as air-conditioners and electric roller doors safe and property. Completed every three months, and instantly disconnect the electricity for the outcome of your electrical can. To lodge a formal complaint humans against electrocution in a small industrial unit to help owner. A circuit the 17th Edition now states that as well as all consumer units, bathrooms zones. 2017-07-08T11:00:02+01:00 Answered 8th Jul 2017 this is due to the rules applying to RCDs required in being. Devices are suitable for use in alternating current systems below need to fit RCDs in Their properties units! More sensitive to electrical overload ( so will keep tripping ) - hence!. Use outdoors, rented or hired landlords to fit RCDs to rental properties work a...

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